Building Culture & Creating Memorable Hotels | with Bashar Wali

The Modern Hotelier - Episode #22 === At the end of the day, a hotel, and by the way, a person, a car, a meal, all interactions in life, everything you do in life, literally everything, is either memorable or forgettable. So if you applied that to a hotel, I don't care how much I paid, I don't care how many stars it had, I don't care what amenities it had. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. Is it memorable or is it forgettable? So I'd say the only hotels I wanna be involved with are memorable hotels, Welcome to the Modern Hotelier. You're presented by Stayflexi. I'm your host, David Millili. Steve Carran: And I'm Steve Carran. David Millili: Steve, who do we have on the program today? Steve Carran: Yeah, David. Today we have, um, Bashar Wally. Boar has over 30 years of experience in hospitality. He worked as a GM at Starwood Hotels before leading acquisitions and development globally at the Grand Heritage Hotels. Bashar then served as a president and CEO of Providence Hotels, where he grew the company from five to 15 hotels and expanded the collection from a Pacific Northwest to an an award-winning national brand. Now Bashar is the founder and CEO of This Assembly and Practice Hospitality. Welcome to the show, Bashar. Bashar Wali: Thanks guys. Delighted to be here. David Millili: All right, as we're gonna get started, so we're gonna go through a couple areas. We're gonna get to know you a little bit better. Get to know your career, what you've done, and then we're gonna ask you some industry questions. And so here we go. So, what was the first job you ever had? for our non-native English speaker, my first job was PBX operator and no, not the plugin 50 style that we actually had a phone with buttons and numbers on it. For those who don't know what that is, you answer the phone and direct the calls. David Millili: Who did you admire growing up? probably mom, just hard worker, tenacious. David Millili: What's the best piece of advice you've ever received? never confuse effort for results. David Millili: What's the worst piece of advice you've ever seen?the hotel business is fun. It pays well. What's the biggest, what's the biggest risk you've ever taken? starting a company in the middle of the bowels of hell of Covid, a hotel company. No. David Millili: We're gonna get into that, but who's a person dead or alive you'd like to take to lunch? And where would you take them? Bashar Wali: Oh, uh, probably MotherTeresa and I'd like to take her to her kitchen and sit on the floor and just have a seven hour conversation with her. David Millili: What makes you angry? Bashar Wali: Oh God. what doesn't make me angry? Uh, People who drive in the left lane at like below the speed limit, blood pressure 9,000 immediately. David Millili: Uh, what scares you, Bashar Wali: my daughter who's 17, David Millili: What's something that you wish you were better at? sleeping on planes. David Millili: Hmm. I have a trick I'll tell you later. If you could have a superpower, what superpower would you like to. Bashar Wali: Teleportation because I wanna visit all hundred 93 countries in two territories. Steve Carran: Awesome. Well, that was great. Now we'll get to learn a little bit more about you, what makes you tick, and uh, your background.you grew up in Damascus, Syria, is that correct? And how did that shape you into who you are today? Bashar Wali: Well, first of all, my love of urban, uh, I'm an urban rat. Damascus, Syria at the time was 3 million people. You know, we lived in flats or in a home, so I've always been a fan of the energy cities provide. And my favorite pastime was, and still is, Flaneur is a French word that, means he who wanders a city aimlessly. And I remember growing up, just literally walking. For hours on end, just admiring engaging all my senses, whether it's architecture or fabric or texture or spices or dirt or garbage or rats or whatever it may be. it's made me really observant of the world around me and kind of looking at the canvas broadly and clearly growing up in the Middle East, I used to quote a lot that I sort of, I tell people why I got in the industry and it goes something like this. When a stranger shows up at your door, feed him for three days before you ask him who he is, where he's from, or where he's going to, because by then he'll either have the strength to answer or you'll be, just go such good friends, it won't matter. So this idea of hospitality is very innate in that part of the world and lots of parts of the world, but it certainly has sort of shaped my view on what hospitality is and what it. David Millili: What made you decide to go to Johnson and Wales and, and take a degree in hospitality? you know, that was a means to an end. I obviously was trying to come to the US legally and the way to come to the US legally was to come to go to college. I thought I'd study journalism, politics, you know, I always had a dream of working at World Bank or the UN or whatever, but we knew a guy who knew, a guy who knew a guy there who got me accepted to the school and I showed up and no intention of hospitality walked in and here we are today, 30 some years later. David Millili: Were you involved in any organizations when you were at university? Bashar Wali: Not really. I mean, I had to pay for my, uh, self going through school. So I literally had, two jobs trying to pay for school and worked seven days a week. It was one of those, you know, no, no silver spoon. So no time for fun. I'm trying to make up for it now. That's why I'm still a 14 year old at heart and wanna visit every country and have FOMO for everything in life that exists. Whether I like it or not, I have FOMO for it. Steve Carran: There you go. There you go. And you've been involved in, uh, the Young President's organization for quite a few years. can you tell us more about what YPO is and, and what made you get involved? Bashar Wali: So YPO is a global networking organization. 30,000 members globally, represents combine the fourth largest economy in the world. Powerful organization. You have to meet certain standards to get in. No secret handshake, no funny business. Really is a great professional networking organization and, you know, you get to a point in your career and you guys hear this, that it's lonely at the top and it really is lonely at the top. And it's hard to find a group of peers that you can speak freely to. And Y P O has been. Tremendously important and valuable part of my life because it offers me that not only personally, professionally, in every way. it's one of those things, like everything in life, you get out of it, what you put in it. So I went all in. Uh, there's a hospitality network within the organization of roughly 4,000 CEOs globally, of which I'm the chair now. And again, the access I have, you know, think about the, the, the power of saying I am able to pick up the phone and call 4,000 hospitality CEOs globally. And again, it's not about asking for favors. It's not about doing business together. It's just about, Hey, I'm facing this issue. I'm sure you've faced it before, telling me what to do. Tremendous value. And I can't emphasize this idea of networking to anyone. You know, network, network, network, network, network. Surround yourself with people that are smarter than you are. Steve Carran: absolutely. And, you know, you're notorious for, for staying in one hotel per night. are you still doing that? Are you switching hotels every night? I was in, uh, Europe last week for a week. Uh, I don't think I stayed in any hotel more than one night, although I was jumping countries also. I was there for eight days, seven countries. so yeah, I, I look, it's painful. Steve Carran: Yeah. Bashar Wali: too old. However, it's become like my thing. People will shame me if I don't do it. So it's almost obligatory now. Now I am smart enough and have been married for a long time to know that, uh, yeah, I'm not doing that to my wife, but when I travel alone, that's my jam. And if I travel with you guys on a business trip doing it right and you'll like, wait, we're not doing it. Steve Carran: Right, right. What's your current number of hotels you've stayed at in New York City? Bashar Wali: 225, Steve Carran: Wow. Do you have a, Do you have a global number as well, or Bashar Wali: I haven't kept track of the global number. The reason for Manhattan is to just sort of demonstrate. Immense neurotic,behavior that I have, like la I've ran out dc I've ran out Boston, I've ran out. look, many people travel a lot more than me, so it's, it's not about like the road warrior badge. Lots of people literally live on the road, have no home. I don't travel as much, as many, I travel a lot, 220,000 miles here to date. But I'm pretty confident that I hold the world record for the most hotels in one city, cuz no one is stupid enough to do that. Problem is, I don't care enough to prove it. So I've never pursued, proven it. Steve Carran: maybe they'll hear this and you'll get a plaque in the, in the mail or something. Bashar Wali: Great. Just what I need. David Millili: So do you have a travel, hack, like a, you know, a secret that that helps you when you travel? Bashar Wali: I mean, people talk about unpacking. I'm like, What are you psycho? What do you mean unpacking? Who unpacks? I hang my shirts so that it'll get wrinkled, but outside of that, my suitcase is my drawer. You know, people talk about rolling their shirts and people talk about doing this and that and the other. It really is pretty straightforward. And yes, I am one of those who say three day trip, three pairs of underwear. One, one in case I die, one in case I go to the hospital. So I end up with nine anyway, so I don't have any real hacks except I'm sure you guys have heard my neurotic water pressure fetish. So I do travel with a, with a wrench and a pair of pliers so I can self improve the water pressure in on my own. Steve Carran: Does that ever get stopped at security or anything? Bashar Wali: You know, it's funny. So, what we're talking about here is the first thing I do when I walk into a hotel room, I take the showerhead off and back in the day, you flip it over and the water flow restrictor falls out. Well, those have become integrally built in part of the EPA requirements. So now have to travel with needle those pliers and literally whack the thing and yank it out. And you're right, uh, you know, maybe 30% of the time, the TSA guy whose IQ is like two says, Oh, what are you doing with this thing? Like, what the hell do you think I'm doing? What am I gonna poke The, poke the pilot in the eye with the, So yes, I buy them by the case from Amazon and generally I, I will have one in my briefcase and one in my suitcase if one goes the other. Have a good chance of facet through Steve Carran: Unreal. That's awesome. That's awesome. So you kind of talked a little bit about this with, with YPO and, and kind of the importance of having a community around you. have you had a mentor, you know, in your 30 years of hospitality or somebody that's really made an impact on, on your career? Bashar Wali: I mean, look, I've had a lot of mentors along the way and it's hard for me to just point at one. But I will say there was this, this one guy, I was for an office manager. He was gm, he was 29 at the time. And he gave me this sort of, again, competition, so to speak. And I said to him, I said, I'm gonna beat you. I'm gonna make it to GM a lot younger than you. And I did it, I was 27 at a hotel that had 300 rooms that was union and had all these nightmares. And I remember telling the story of walking into a staff meeting that I'm running where I'm literally the youngest person, Right. Like literally by a lot. you know, and it's one of those things tell me, I can't and watch me do it anyway. So I think sometimes we need that little push. So he's, he's a guy I remember vividly and it was almost competition like, but it worked really, really. Steve Carran: that was great. Now, now we'll get to talk about your career a little bit, find out, you know, a little bit more about that. So what was your first job in hospitality? PBX operator, like I mentioned earlier, and I, I've applied out of college for literally one job and that was the one job I've ever applied for. I've never applied for a job sense. And, you know, look, so Johnson Wells is a hotel specialty school, culinary and hospitality. Bashar Wali: Certainly not the gold standard. Obviously you have a lot of great schools, sort of Cornell, the Ivy, and then U N L V in Michigan and all of that. And I always sort of say, Sure, having a degree is important, but the reality is, and I'll probably get some hate mail for this, it's not rocket science. Hospitality is not rocket science. And if you go back to my earlier quote, if you know how to host a party at your. house That's the only education you need. So I tell people fundamentally the idea of going to school for it is nice. It's nice to have the piece of paper, but nothing like the school of hard knocks. Nothing like working in overnight shift. Nothing like having to walk a bus full of old tourists in Boston who are coming to watch the leaves, turn and telling them, Sorry, we have no room for you. We're sending you two hours away. No school ever teaches you that standing on the bus being torn apart by a bunch of old ladies. So I am thankful I worked and I tell people I have literally worked not in a management training program, not in a fancy ho toy way. I actually paid my dues cleaning toilets, maintenance night audit, dish washing, kitchen sales, accounting, and I love how that has grounded me and given me a whole different perspective. Again, some two 80 Ivy League education where I think I know what I'm talking about. Steve Carran: you kind of mentioned this, like you kinda did everything in a hotel. Did that help you in your role when you did become a GM for Starwood? Bashar Wali: I mean, clearly a hundred percent. And, and people say, Well, how do you do it? It's very easy in a hotel construct. I never said, no, ever. I literally would be working a double shift and it's now 11 o'clock and the night auditor calls in sick and they're like, can anyone stay? Of course I'll stay. Or someone says, My computer broke. I'm like, I'll look at it. Because if you're not afraid to tackle something, that's how you learn fundamentally, right? So if you just jump all in and you're open and willing to learn and not Tim about it, that's essentially the school of hard knocks, right? Like, pretend enough to convince them, you know, because you're gonna learn how to do it once you get your hands on it. David Millili: So from Starwood, you went on to become vice president of AT Grant Heritage Hotel Group. what was that like leading the efforts for North America, British Virgin Islands in Mexico, you know, it was a really interesting company at the time because we specialized in historic assets only before it was a thing. So you had these amazing properties that truly were the true, authentic, original storytellers because they actually had a story to tell, right? It wasn't some random branding that someone created to tell a story in these buildings, on average were hundreds of years old, we had European assets as well. Bashar Wali: So it was a very rewarding opportunity. And again, I was, you know, probably now I was in my early thirties and I was traveling the world, living on the road and, you know, going from being some hotel operator to sitting down and negotiating big deals, it was such a great learning experience. and my wife, to whom I've been married, Eileen for a long time, I had a great system at. I had a stable sort of thing at home that allowed me to do what I do because otherwise, like I mentioned earlier, I think about it, am I better off having partied a lot in my twenties and thirties and then thought about sort of becoming more serious? Or did I do it the right way? And there's no right answer, but for me it was the right answer because it afforded me the opportunity not to get to a point self made no handouts from anyone. I worked my ass off early on to be able to enjoy the reward of that now. So it was a really great experience. But listen, lived on the road, different cities, different countries, and you know, people think it's fun. It's not when you live on the road that way, back then, so, but it was a great rewarding experience. And dealing with historic buildings, as you know, they're nuanced in a lot of ways, kind of sets you up. So when someone talks about a building that's 10 years old, I'm play. Steve Carran: Absolutely. one of those hotels, is a Stanley Hotel. I live in Colorado about an hour away from there. Any fun stories about that hotel or any fun experiences? I know Room two 17 has a few things, so, Bashar Wali: so many stories, but my favorite story is everyone thought the hotel was haunted, right? So this is back to the Pay Per View movie days. Literally the doors were paper thin. Literally paper thin. So we figured out all the clicks to do on how to order a movie, right? It's easy, you figure out the clicks. So like I'm traveling with you guys. I stand outside your room at three o'clock in the. Click, click, click, click. And at three o'clock in the morning, there's a porn movie blaring in a haunted hotel. And of course, now I have to watch you the next morning. Tell the front desk, Oh, I didn't do it. It went off by itself. Sure it did. So we had so much fun screwing with people that way. And, you know, I don't know, we'd leave things under their pillows like, I don't know, a chicken breast under someone's pillow, and they go to bed and there's, so it was, it was very easy to screw with people. Now as you know, that hotel, um, Stephen King went there to write Pet Cemetery, got stuck there and ended up writing The Shining but contrary popular, uh, belief. It was not filmed there. They wanted to film it there, but there was a Safeway being built with a crane in the background. And if you know Estes Park, when it snows, the snow doesn't stick. So, in fact, it was filmed in my backyard here in the Timberline Lodge on Mount Hood in Oregon. Steve Carran: Wow. Wow. Very cool. Very Bashar Wali: Yeah. David Millili: So after nine years of Grand Heritage, uh, you went over to Providence Hotels as president. what made you make that move and what attracted you to do that? uh, again, never asked, uh, was asked, you know, to join and, uh, helped take it from what was a family real estate business to a true hotel company. And, you know, this was early days of boutique independent lifestyle, whatever you wanna call it. Kimpton was sort of king at the time. They really sort of invented that version of the business for getting schrager and all the others before them. Bashar Wali: But, you know, we did some really, really innovative things at the time. Privately held company, no one to answer to. We could do anything we want. And it allowed us to really do a lot of interesting things, trial and error. The others would not have been able to do. Like we use the example of we put honey beehives on the roofs of our building before anyone did it. And of course, the lawyers and the insurance companies say, Don't do it. Don't do it. We're like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. We're gonna do it. And you have the ability to do it that way and made the USA Today Life section cover page cuz the bees were dying off whatever. And now you say that and it seems like, yeah, everybody does that. Well of course everybody does that. But when you're the first to do it, people are like, What are you crazy? Guests are gonna get stung. You're gonna get sued, blah, blah, blah. So being able to have a platform that allows you the flexibility to do interesting things. And by the way, interesting, doesn't equal shock and awe. Lots of people do shock and awe, but thoughtful, intentional, and interesting things. So it was a great opportunity to really define what's different about what we do and how it's different. Steve Carran: part of that is a guest experience. how did you make the guest experience so unique at your properties? Bashar Wali: at the end of the day, we all live and die at the guest experience. Forget the design, forget the branding, forget the beehives, forget all that stuff. in my opinion, I think people talk about training and they talk about credo cards and memorizing things. I think the, only way you can do good work is by creating a culture that celebrates those engagements and those transactions and culture creation. If I could write a book on it tomorrow, I would, It's not easy, right? Like people say, Well, how do you do that? How you do that is the culmination of tens of thousands of little moments and little actions you take. But I truly believe at the end of the day, if you wanna create culture of any kind, start by how you treat each other and how you treat your employees, and how you treat your coworkers and the care you show for them. Because if I don't care about you, my teammate, I can pretend all day long that I care about the guest. It's never gonna be genuine. So this idea of, you know, lead by example, but it's a lot more than that also, cuz I alone a person can't lead by example. It's not enough. It's really creating a culture that allows people to A, appreciate what it is that you're doing and B, feel almost compelled to do it. I almost think of it like joining a family, right? Like if you're my kid, whether you're a good kid or a bad kid, if you share the last name, there's a certain expectation of you and there's a certain pressure on you to say, I am. portraying my family's name in this transaction. I've gotta behave myself. No matter where you are in that spectrum. So I think this idea of creating a family-like environment where it is your pride to deliver, but also to some extent there's a little bit of obligation, there's a little bit of guilt. A little bit of guilt goes a long way that you're representing and you have to do it. But if you just think you're a transaction, you're a number, you're an employee, you're there for a paycheck. and You don't care. We're working on coining this term Now, in my current venture, we call give-a-shit-ability Like employees need a reason to care. You've gotta give them a reason to care. And the best reason to make someone care is for you to care for them. So if I show you I care for you, you're inevitably going to have a tiny bit of guilt that will make you care back, so to speak. Right? And I think that translates in the guest. So, culture, culture, culture, culture. I know there's no guide on how to do it and there's no training book on how to do it. You've gotta every minute of every day always do the right thing and it happens organically. David Millili: Is there something you're most proud of when you were at Providence Bashar Wali: I mean, our team, obviously I did nothing. I had an amazing team. I was proud of, I was proud of our diversity on the corporate team. We were, I think mostly females, Whatever got created. It was like Noah's Ark, I had 'em all, our team in the field, early days, also female GMs, everybody had a sense of pride. Like, you know, we talked, for example, I don't know, back in the day if you worked at Whole Foods pre-Amazon, like you felt proud that you worked there. you bragged about working there. And I feel like we accomplished that in a lot of ways. We weren't perfect, obviously we made a lot of mistakes and continue to make a lot of mistakes. But I think creating a place back to give us shit ability where people are proud to be associated with, I think goes a long way Again, family, right? Like this is not rocket. David Millili: When you joined Grand Heritage, group, you started, Levon Hotel Holdings, Bashar Wali: Yeah, that one, that one is my personal sort of investment company. Doesn't have any employees or anything, it's just my own. once I drank the first cup of Kool-Aid, I was in on hospitality. Right? So I always knew I wanted to be in hospitality. So I created that vehicle to allow me to tinker with other things, with hospitality on the side. David Millili: Yeah. It's funny how you know right away, I mean, it's, uh, interesting. I tell the story, you know, I just, just even being a bus boy, like I kind of, I just knew right away that I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna be in hospitality. I don't know how I knew it. Just knew it, Bashar Wali: funny you say that Now, like I go with Eileen, my wife, to a party, she hates going to parties with me cuz you'll invite me to your party, right? And Steve's at your party. And I walk up to Steve, who I don't know and be like, Hey Steve, how's it going? I'm Behar, can I get you a drink? And my wife. It's at your party, like why are you working the party? But once you have it in you, right, Like I sort of, the job description I have for myself is I call myself the host of the sore, like wherever I go. And by the way, some hosts hate it. They're like, I'm taking their spotlight. Like, why are you messing with my guests? I got this. I'm like, No, you don't got this. Cuz Steve has an empty glass in his end. You are not doing it right. His glass should not be empty. So I think to your point, David, once you have it, well let me rephrase this. We all have it. We all have it unequivocally. Once you realize you have it, it's hard to let go. David Millili: It's funny you say that cuz I was, people looked at me like I was crazy. I was just at a meeting. In New York and lunch was finished, but I wasn't running the meeting. I was, you know, somebody else was running it. I was kind of like the SI and I started cleaning up people's plates and people were like looking at me like crazy. But I needed them to focus on the meeting and not worry about cleaning up their plates. But it was pretty, it was, it was a fun, It's funny when you see those faces, Bashar Wali: in, in that vein, literally I will fight you to the, to the end for holding a door or being the last to walk in a room. So I go to New York and it's muscle memory. I hold the elevator door and let people on. And you know, in New York people look at you like, What, who are you and why are you doing this? Right? So it's funny, but it truly becomes muscle memory. Like I joke about the brand guys that have grew up with brands, they have the karate pillow chop in the lobby. That's all they do all day is the karate, Karate chops, the decorative pillows and it's muscle memory, right? So I think this sort of holding the door and being cleaning the table for us hotel people, it truly becomes muscle memory. Steve Carran: in July of 2020, you started the Assembly and practice hospitality. I gotta ask, what, what made you leave Providence and start two companies Right in the middle of the pandemic. Bashar Wali: is a very long story for another day. But the why start, I mean, there's, conventional wisdom about the best time to start is in fact during the worst times because you become more resilient. You pay your dues quickly and immediately you suffer a lot. And we seem, whether you're religious or not, it seems like we a species like to suffer suffering equals success and or happiness. Like you can't just be born happy. You have to suffer to be happy. So I think it was a really great time. As bad as it was, it was a really great time. And I think as we think about it and as we think about what our proposition was, it was a moment of reset in our industry that made people rethink everything. And I thought it was an ideal time to allow me to practice what I've preached for a long time, freely. Cause remember, There's always a board or an investor or whatever, and in this case, there's none. So if we don't do a good job, it is on us. We can't believe there's no scapegoats, right? So it was great to have a blank canvas to really try to change the narrative a little bit. Look, our industry, in my opinion, has had two disruptions ever in its history, in my opinion, the internet, which disrupted everything obviously. And then Airbnb. Outside of that, it's been largely ornaments on the tree. The tree is still the same, and I think our industry could stand some additional disruption and I don't know what it is yet. If I did, I probably would be on my yacht in the south of France right now. Probably still talking to you guys, cuz I love this anyway, but ultimately I felt like I needed the freedom. With no shackles. With no handcuffs, to be able to practice what I preach and do good work and look at the end. I don't want any portraits or books or anything like that. I just want someone, somebody to say, Oh yeah, you know, that guy did good work for our industry. And that's really all I ask for. David Millili: so with the assembly, uh, came the practice hospitality. how's practice hospitality different? Bashar Wali: Yeah. So the two distinctions between the two companies, this assembly is the holding company and it's ultimately going to do lots of other things in the hospitality space, owning real estate. In fact, I was tinkering and still am with a web three marketing agency. So it's designed to be a catchall for whatever muse I have at the moment. Practice Hospitality is a hotel management company that owns nothing but is a service provider owned by this assembly. But I wanted to be able to have sort of an umbrella that allowed me to not dilute and confuse. So Practice Hospitality is a hotel management company. This Assembly is the parent company that does other things, David Millili: Is there something specific in your mind that makes practice hospitality? Bashar Wali: hotel management companies, dime a dozen commodity, lots of great ones. Know them all, know a lot of their founders and CEOs, great people, smart people. here's the analogy I use with practice. You and your spouse are trying to have a baby and you can't, and you work hard and you finally have a baby and it is the apple of your eye. You. Invested in everything that happens to that child that you brought into this world and now you need to go on a trip. You give your baby to someone to manage. Like think about how passive and terrible that term management is. And for anyone who's done hotel development, I mean God are arguing, in some cases that building gets more attention than your new baby. You agonize over every detail. You agonize over. You know what shape the doorknob is. I mean, agonize, blood, sweat, and tears. especially if you're doing it with your own money, right? You've borrowed money from your aunt and your third cousin and you put up your house as collateral and now you've gotta give it to someone to manage. So our premise was, look, we wanna be small, we wanna be nimble, we want you. The minute you ask us to do it, for you to not own the building anymore, you no longer own it. We own it cuz you want us to think like we own it. And that's our background is we come from owner operator. So we said lots of great management companies out there. If you want more than management. In fact, we tinkered for a little bit with, do we call ourselves a hotel care company, a hotel nurture company. It got too cute at the end, but that's sort of the distinction I'd say is you give me your asset, she's mine, she's my baby. I'm gonna take care of her like she's mine. And sometimes you may not like it, but trust me, in the end it is for your benefit for me to think I own it, whether I own any of it or not. Because I will never make a wrong decision when I think I own it. But if it's just a, hey, manage it and I have a hundred that I manage, it's just another versus the only one. And funny enough, some of my colleagues make fun of me. Like when I go to pitch a deal, I say I use the baby example a lot. You know how like with your kids, if you have kids, you say to the world, you may be one person, but to one person you may be the world. I sort of kind of think of it in those terms. So think of it. Handcrafted owner centric, small by design, never gonna be 500 hotels. That's not the intent. And you get our background and experience in having been owners and thinking like owners, but also being creative and boundary pushing and really thinking about thoughtful, intentional things to make the guest journey better and make your offering more valuable than the next guy. David Millili: Yeah, it's so true. I mean, I have, I have a friend who's CFO at a reit and one of the management companies they use manages and owns properties. And he said they love them because they, the properties they manage, they manage them like they own them. And that makes, that makes the actual owners very happy. Bashar Wali: And actually, it's funny, this, this mentality, this ownership mentality. When I talk to a line level employee, front desk person, I say, Look, if you owned this hotel, literally you owned it. How would you handle this situation? 99.9% of the time? It's always a perfect answer because when you think of like someone, someone is annoyed, right? They want their money back for whatever reason, whatever thing it is, and you're holding your ground, you're like, no they shouldn't. I say, Okay, well now they're gonna go tell a friend, complain, blah, blah, blah. Is it really worth it in the end if you own this building? So if you put that owner's hat on, it changes your perspective. Similarly, there's a leak in the wall. Sure, I can paint the wall and make the leak disappear, but that's not the right thing to do. Open up the wall, find out why it's leaking, fix the leak, then paint it. So it just, again, a different mindset, because to me a manager is transactional. Go, go, go. I'm here today, I'm gone tomorrow. And owner is forever. And you're thinking about things long term. Steve Carran: Are there any hotels or any hotel types that are a good fit for, practice hospitality? Bashar Wali: I mean, think about the terms we use these days. They're all empty and meaningless, lifestyle and boutique and independent and all of that. So to sort of shed that sort of thing, let's call 'em lifestyle collectively, meaning it's not a beige brand that looks exactly the same in Cairo that it does in Cleveland. Anything other than that is sort of in our wheelhouse lifestyle. Now, Moxi is a lifestyle, right? I use that brand, but like SpringHill Suites is not, I don't think of it as, right. But these days, by the way, ac, I mean there's some great hotels out there and everyone has caught on to this idea. I don't know anyone. I don't know about you guys who says, I am going to Cleveland and I wanna stay in a really boring beige hotel. Like no one ever says that. Now what's cool? The cool bar is different from person to person. And what might be cool to you might be not cool enough for me or too cool for me. But fundamentally, this idea of lifestyle, I use that term loosely because it covers so much ground. So as long as it's lifestyle, you know, Can I manage a golf resort? Sure, I've done it before, but is that my skill set today? No. So I'd say we're urban business centric, a hundred to 300 lifestyles, generally full service. Generally. Now I have some anomalies, like I have a 12 room thing on the Oregon coast that we co-own and operate. That's a different unique offering. But outside of that, I would say urban, maybe not urban, but the right kind of fit. But lifestyle generally a step. And by the way, as you know, from my neurotic hotel stays, now I sort of, after all these years say there's only one way to judge a hotel, to rate a hotel. Forget stars, forget diamonds. Forget, forget, forget, forget. For a while there, I was using shower heads as my rating. You know, on a scale of one to five shower heads, what do you get? But truly now, and maybe it's older and wiser, this is sort of like month moment in me, I sort of think about it and say, Look, at the end of the day, a hotel, and by the way, a person, a car, a meal, all interactions in life, everything you do in life, literally everything is either memorable or forgettable. So if you applied that to a hotel, I don't care how much I paid, I don't care how many stars it had, I don't care what amenities it had. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. Is it memorable or is it forgettable? So I'd say the only hotels I wanna be involved with are memorable hotels, whatever that may be, right? Whatever it may be. Now, Memorable could be terrible memorable, cuz memorable generally is either an unmitigated disaster or really good. So hopefully we're on this side of the equation, but memorable. And if you really distill that down and think about it, if I don't give you a reason, David, to go home and tell your spouse, your partner, your friend, your neighbor, Hey, I just stayed at, and you won't believe then all I've given you is a commodity. And if we become a commodity, you needed a bed and a shower, I gave you a bed and a shower check. If I've given you a commodity, I think of gas as commodity. I need gas for my car. I look for convenience, location, and price. I don't care if it's Shell or Exxon or whatever it may be, right? Fundamentally because it's a commodity. And if we become a commodity and people are buying us purely based on location and price, we're dead. Forget it. Right? So ultimately, if I don't give you something beyond a stolen towel to bring home, And talk about, at least even in your head, talk about it. You see, you know, and generally memorable in my opinion, comes from thoughtful and intentional things, right? Often I, give a lot of credit for hotels that have really thought through the guest journey and how I interact with the room beyond shock and awe But fundamentally memorable is people, I only remember interactions with people. I have stayed in 225 hotels. Like, ask me what art is on the wall at Baccarat. I don't know. Ask me what flooring material is at the Ludlow. I don't know. But I remember when Steve at the Ludlow came out and found me the one thing I was looking for last minute, or I showed up at two o'clock in the morning, starving, dying, delayed flights, and he literally knocked on my door and delivered me a whatever. Like, that's a memorable thing. It's not the things, it's always the people. Steve Carran: so now we can kind of move into the industry thought. The last section here. first question, why is emotional intelligence, so important In the hotel industry? Bashar Wali: Oh man. I mean, I tell people generally I have two, things I look for in any candidate common sense, which is extremely uncommon. Extremely uncommon. Back to my original point, not rocket science guys, it is not rocket science. So common sense and emotional intelligence. And in fact, I have been working with the dean of, the School of hospitality at bu. We're talking about this idea is can we create an emotional intelligence aptitude test that would allow me to Steve, give you this test before you start working or as I'm screening you to show me that you have the ability. To be emotionally intelligent. You may not have it. And by the way, I think, and I'm sure hate mail bring it. I think emotional intelligence is sort of, it's either have it or you don't kind of thing. But hopefully we can refine it. So we're trying to figure out if there's a way to test people before we hire them. But why is it important? It is literally everything. Because back in the day, no offense to my friends at the Ritz Carlton, we give you a credo card that said, We are ladies and gentlemen, serving ladies and gentlemen, and you had to memorize it. Well, a robot can memorize a card. And if you believe what I'm about to tell you, I personally believe that the future of luxury at large, and I use the luxury term loosely, right, like luxury for someone here could be three star or it could be seven star. So forget where it is on the luxury scale is ultra customization. And ultra customization requires emotional intelligence because David shows up at the desk. He's in a hurry. He's walking up to you with credit card, and his license. And you could clearly see he's a pro, right? He knows how to do this. You should be emotionally intelligent enough to read him and say, This guy doesn't want to be talked to. He wants me to hand him his key and send him on his way. And I say like, Don't even tell me where the elevator is. I can hear it. Thank you. Steve shows up and he's fumbling through his wallet and he's complaining about his flight and he's complaining about the stinky Uber driver or whatever. Like this guy wants to be talked to, he wants to be engaged with, he wants to be recognized. So how do we train people that don't read the stupid credo card for everyone who shows up? Cuz not everyone wants it. Some might, some don't. And I'm actually perplexed at the idea that I have to tell you how to say good morning or good evening, or good afternoon. I'm not gonna tell you how to do it. Do it your own way based on the customer in front of you. Because the goal is that they feel warm and fuzzy and they feel welcome. How you get there, should it matter? And if you think about what we said earlier, the brands had to do it right? Because if I went to the Four Seasons in Cairo, and by the way, I have been and I was in the lobby and I'm like, I could be in Washington DC like there's no difference. I expected it to be ex, like the McDonald's thing. When you go to McDonald's in, I don't know, Croatia, you want it to be exactly like the McDonald's you go to in, you know, New Orleans. You want, you don't want it to be different cuz that's why you're going to McDonald's. But when you go to an independent place that tries to be independent lifestyle, whatever, you want it to feel different and be different. So I think ultimately emotional intelligence is reading your customer and giving them what they want, not what your company tells you they want because the hell your company. What? What does your company know about David who just showed up at your door? Nothing. , right? Oh, we know he likes green m and ms on the pillows. Come on. That's so 1994. What does David want that moment, right? Because David's day is different. Like he may show up one day feeling a certain way and then show up another day feeling a certain way, and this is a tall order by, I'm not suggesting that we're gonna be psychiatrists here, but just emotionally intelligent enough to read your customer and give them what they want. David Millili: Can you make sure the designers take that test? Because I walk into so many hotel rooms where I'm like, Who designed this room? They have no, there's no common sense. I'm like, Why is this the way it is? Bashar Wali: about functionality you're talking about, right? because look, the problem with aesthetic is it's very subjective. What you may hate, I may love kind of like art, right? Like it's in the eyes of the beholder. But I tell people for someone who travels as much, moves around as much as I do, like I have a system, right? I, I deal with a room in a certain. Don't try to make it hard for me. I'll give you an example of a hotel to remain nameless in New York City. Small hotel, small rooms, lovely hotel, small rooms. I walk into the room, I'm looking for the remote control now I know hotels right inside and out with my eyes closed. Cannot find the remote control for the life of me. And I'm feeling a little stupid now. I'm like, uh, is it missing or am I miss? Is it right in front of me and I can't find it? So this hotel happens to have a desk that folds, right? One of those you folded down, it's a desk cuz the room is small. So the desk is folded and inside the desk that's folded that I'm not gonna use. There's a little copy with the remote in it. Like, why would you ever put the remote there? Has zero sense. I may never open that desk, so how am I gonna know that the remote is there? So those are the sort of, when designers get cute and they don't think about the practical implication of a decision they make. David Millili: Sorry to stick on this, but it's probably the same hotel that I have problems with because they actually took the time to cut out holes. And the mirror to put hooks there's hooks along the wall for your stuff and actually cut holes in the full length mirror to put hooks. But the whole purpose of a mirror so you can look into it. So what would you be hanging over a mirror? It doesn't make any Bashar Wali: I mean, listen, I can write a book about this stuff that, we'll, we'll leave, we'll leave it alone for now. But yeah, there's a lot of like, you scratch your head through like, really why? Who thought this was a good idea? But now that you got me going, dear world showers need doors. I don't care how cool you think it is and what sexy things you imagine happening in that shower with outdoors. Put a damn door on the shower cuz the stuff flies everywhere. You are freezing your butt off no matter what you do and it just has zero practical use. Put a damn door on the shower. David Millili: Agree. Steve Carran: I Agree. David Millili: So why is storytelling so important for hotel? Bashar Wali: I just threw up in my mouth. By the way, I apologize because I'm so tired of storytelling. I am so ti I mean literally the, the, the nail salons. Now say we're storytellers and anyone, friends, I love you and I know some of you personally, if your title on LinkedIn says storyteller, please change it for your own good, not for mine. Look, storytelling is a really interesting concept cuz think about it. We humans, throughout our existence, until very recently, that's how we told our history. We had to sit around the fire and grandma had to tell you because that's how we delivered our history millennia after millennia, after millennia. So again, it's innate to us. It's in our nature to tell stories and it's our nature to wanna hear stories. And back to my point about the give us shit ability. Like why am I staying in your hotel? What about it? What's exciting about it? Why is it not a commodity? So you kind of have to tell me a story. The problem is we use that term so much now that's become empty. Also, you don't need to tell me the story of where the toilet seat cover came from. Like not everything needs a story, right? But for example, if you have a curtain in your room and the fabric for that curtain was inspired by some native tribe that used to be in that area, like that's an interesting story. But I think there's also this issue now that we wanna tell you everything about everything, which eliminates the sense of discovery in a place I subscribe to that I'm gonna do something really cool and I'm not gonna say a thing about it. And if you catch it, 10% of the people catch it and ask about it and are blown away. It's far more valuable than me telling you, I'm cool, I'm cool, I'm cool, I'm cool. And by the way, have you ever met a cool person that says, Hey David, I'm. Like you, you, you just like, you don't go around with a name tag that says, I am cool. It, it just happens. It's who you are. It's your authentic self. And the minute you have a sign that says, I'm cool, by definition, you're not cool. People do not say they're cool, period. So this storytelling business has gone to the extreme. We need to comment, we need to take it down like 72 notches and kind of let it be. Of course I say weave a narrative. Weave a narrative throughout your building, throughout your offering. But telling stories has very, I'm standing on a soapbox and monologue in you. Weaving a narrative is, I find that when I find that I don't, When I don't, and in the end, if I get the whole picture, I am blown away because it just works so beautifully together. Steve Carran: Do you think it's hard for independent hotels to, to break away from the mold and kind of find their uniqueness Bashar Wali: what a great question and the problem now. Curbed a few years back came out with a how to build a cool hotel guide. The minute there's a guide, it's no longer cooler again, right back to the name tag. So the issue now is having local art, having local coffee, having funny things in the, in the minibar. Having a beehive on your roof, having, having rotating art galleries, yoga in the morning, meditation rooms, kombucha, tastings, you name it, have almost become ubiquitous. Everyone does it. Hampton Inn has cool art now, right? So how do you change the narrative and break away from the herd and be unique? So the first thing is you've gotta be yourself. Like you can't try to be someone you're not. Cuz you'll fail miserably. People will see right through it. So I describe another one of the most overused words of the century. Authenticity and authentic. I describe authenticity as an unapologetic point of view. So you've gotta have a point of view, non-political, non-religious, non, you know, non divisive. But you have to have a point of view. Cause if you don't, you're just again, a commodity. So I think the stand away from the heart is you have to have a thing that you own, that you're unapologetic about, whatever that is. And a thing, maybe an attitude, right? It's not a thing necessarily. But then I also think we've gotten away from humanity in hospitality because it's become about, I wanna out design you and out you and outand you and out story tell you and out shock and are you, And we forgot that ultimately what I just told you earlier, what makes it memorable is you and you not this thing and that thing. So I think refocusing back on the human interactions and in a world of immediate gratification, right? I want it now from whether it's dating or whatever it may be, I think the art of courtship is lost in our. having a moment with a guest, like a sincere sort of connection, I think that's what's gonna set you apart and break away from the herd because the herd is throwing things at it. But ultimately what's gonna make you memorable is if you focus on how you interact with the people that walk in your door every day and how you treat them and how you care for them when they're in your building. David Millili: So one of the things that bothers me and now that we've, been talking for a little, I would love to get your opinion on is what do you think of these city centric hotels that are charging these. I think are kind of crazy Amenity fees. You know, they, they charge you $40 a day and they say you get your phone included access to the fitness center. Wifi. What do you think about this? Bashar Wali: David, really interesting question and it's kind of become a third rail in a way. Look, it's really, really, really hard to make any money in our business today. Notwithstanding covid, the margins are getting squeak to death for the right reasons, by the way, because we must pay our people better. We must treat them better. Unfortunately, the consumer is not paying for it. And at the end of the day, we have responsibility to investors. So I'm gonna call it like it is, I'm gonna give you the real answer cause people are gonna dance around this subject. You'll get the honest truth. For me, We're not in the business for charity, we're in the business to make money. And again, we have responsibilities to investors. So for us to make money and reward our employees, the only way for the math to work is for the customer to pay more meaningfully more. And the customer has been resistant about paying more, particularly in a soft market cuz they have options. So this amenity fee, we call it really became a way to mitigate our issue of cost. Because what was happening is we had to give you free wifi because it became the norm. But wifi costs money. We had to give you coffee in the morning. We had to give you a wine hour in the evening. We had to give you, we had to give you, we had to give you. So that was a way for us to compensate ourselves for all these things we had to do to be competitive and fundamentally to make sure our teammates are being treated well and getting a living wage. And although we all hate it, and I agree with you by the way, some places I go to, they're like 24 7, front desk. I'm like, you're a four star hotel. You better have 24 7 front desk. So I would say, so long as you are in fact putting real amenities to it, sadly It is a lifeline for hotels. They need it desperately. Some are abusing it and they should not. But I would much rather, and I'll say it on record, I would much rather charge you a little more in rate and not have to do this. The problem with charging more with the rate, as you know, becomes this psychological 9 99 thing. So I would say, look at what they're offering you think about it and be a bit more forgiving about it. Cuz it really is truly a necessity. We're not getting rich off it. We're supplementing our loss in the exponentially more expensive world we do business in to allow us to stay in business. Cuz if we don't stay in business, it's no good for you. It's no good for our employees, it's no good for anyone. David Millili: Yeah. No, well said. I mean, I think that's, that is the biggest issue is how, how they phrase it, how they pa, how they present it, Bashar Wali: And package it. And by the way, the way we make it work is we overpack it, we give you too much. And a lot of people say, Well I'm not gonna use, I'm not gonna use this. But everyone will say, Yeah, I have coffee and yes I use the wifi and yes, I do this as long as it's not outrageous. And I've seen it outrageous in some. David Millili: so outside of the labor shortage, what's the biggest thing? Challenge facing our industry that people aren't talking about enough. Bashar Wali: I think people are talking about it and I wish I knew the answer for it, but generally my hotels, like I said, are business center centric, you know, city center business centric and not if cuz it is not when, because it is back business travel, but how much of it, and no one can answer that right now. So if business travel is back at 50% of 2019, God help us all. We are in for a long, long period of hurt and you're gonna see a lot of hotels going to bankruptcy and back to the bank. If it's back at 70% sure we could probably live through it. But the problem with these urban city center hotels is, you know, their bread and butter is the Monday through Thursday road Warrior the tourists are. But if all of a sudden the offices aren't back and people aren't back and people aren't traveling as much, then there is a seismic shift in our industry that makes these markets extremely oversupplied for what they need. And what happens to all those assets? I mean, it's sort of the same conversation. If you're in the parking business and you truly are visionary and you are thinking about, you know, driverless cars, a car's gonna drop you off in your office and go on and park in the suburbs somewhere. It doesn't need to be downtown. So that's probably a decade plus away. But this issue is here. Now, count malls again, what do you do with malls? But this issue is here now, and the office we know for a fact won't be back at a hundred percent. But what we don't know is what I said, 30%, 70%, 50%, who knows? That to me is a major, major, major issue. Now, the drive to destinations and the resorts, as you saw, have had record years. But I tell people, if you want any economic indicator, look at your Facebook feed this last summer. They weren't in the Grand Canyon and they weren't in Palm Springs, they were in France and Italy and Switzerland. So I think a lot of those places will subside. They're gonna do better than they did historically, but they won't see the kind of euphoria they saw for the last two years. So if anyone was blind enough to think that that gravy train will not come to a stop and went and built, those people are gonna probably get hurt also. But to me, right now for my business, my biggest concern is business travel velocity once the dust settles and we're still in the dust settling mode. Steve Carran: Great answer. we've talked about how important the human element is, in the guest experience, but what are some ways that hotels can utilize technology, to create a better guest experience? Bashar Wali: Great question. How do we, utilize technology to help us do what we do better? During the pandemic, people jumped on the technology bandwagon because it was a human elimination tool and thus a cost elimination tool. And I think we went too far with it and too extreme with it. So I order a towel in New York City in a hotel, and a little R2D2 brings me a towel to my room. Perfect. I don't need any human interactions when I'm dripping wet and trying to, you know, get an extra towel and self-checking I've done and I like it as an option. I don't like it when it's the only. Because fundamentally you lose the opportunity to interact with me and impress me with your hospitality. If all I'm doing is on my phone, on the plane, straight to my room, straight back down and straight out. Now airlines have perfected that science, like you don't deal with anyone, right? You check in on your app and they've cut out. Think about that hordes of people, they stop behind, counters checking you in and lines and all of that, all gone. But airlines have the magic moment of having you stuck in that aluminum tube for five hours where they can engage with you and interact with you. We don't have the opportunity in hotels. So I think the way to do it well is to have it as an option. And if you go back to this idea of personalization and emotional intelligence, when I show up and I want to talk to you, talk to me cuz that's how you're gonna make my stay memorable. But if I don't wanna talk to you, I have the option to do it electronically or you just hand me my keys, send me on your on my way. So I think there are ways to do it where it's a creative and it helps my margins as we're talking about earlier, cuz we need that help. if it's an option, I'm all in for it. Don't enforce it on me unless I expect it to be part of your thing. Like some chains, by the way, there's a hotel in Tokyo that I've stayed at that has literally dinosaur robots at the desk. You go there for that. So there, I probably know, I'm not dealing with a human. But outside of that optionality, emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence, and don't miss the opportunity to make your offering memorable saying hello to me with a friendly Steve Carran: Absolutely. I think giving guests the, option of choosing and what their, what experience they want, I think that's so important for hotels to understand. and then the last question here, before, before we let you go here, do you have any, uh, any Wally hacks for any of our listeners out here? Bashar Wali: Besides the shower, and I don't anywhere, I'm trying to think of, And you know, there's the, the good old fashion, the remote is the dirtiest thing in a hotel room. And, you know, you grab a bag out of the ice bucket and you grab the remotes with it and put it inside out. by the way, one of my pet peeves is having the extra toilet paper right next to the toilet and the splash zone. So I'm like, how many people have contributed to that, to the toilet paper that I don't wanna touch? Generally speak. You know what my hack is? I'll tell you what my hack is. Best hack. Tip your housekeepers every day, generously, minimum $5. Write a note that says thank you no matter what language they speak. Because the service you get is incredibly next level and extra bottles of water and, and, and, and God, it's the right thing to do. So treat those people like humans because they are, and go out of your way because they deal with the worst in humanity. Cause humans lose their brains in hotels and they do crazy shit that they never do in their normal lives. And we expect these people, you know, to deal with that with a happy face. So please take care of those housekeepers and the heart of house folks because they're behind the scenes and they're the unsung heroes. there's my hack, Steve Carran: I love that. That's a good one. David Millili: Thank you so much. That brings us to the end. Is there a question that we should have asked you that we didn't? Bashar Wali: I'm glad you didn't ask me what my favorite hotel is cuz it's such an impossible question to answer. David Millili: we, we, That was a rookie podcast mistake early on. We asked that question and we took Bashar Wali: It's not exactly. Cause I'll end up telling you 20 of them. No, I think we covered it. I think, look, you guys do a great job with this and I think it's great to have the opportunity to talk to folks who are interested in industry and I love sort of being the guy who has I said no one to answer to. So I should speak my mind. And if you like it, great. And if you don't, fine, whatever. So glad to be here and glad to share my, uh, 2 cents with you. David Millili: Thank you. Anything you'd like to plug? People can find your hotels, anything you wanna talk about. Bashar Wali: tip, your housekeepers generously. That's the only thing I a plug. David Millili: great. We appreciate it. So that brings us to end of the Modern Hotelier. You're presented by Stayflexi. Uh, until next time, thank you so much.